[crag]

Love everything about the new Grand Highlander EXCEPT for its fatal flaw that will doom its future existence: No PHEV.

While "hybrid" means that a vehicle propulsion comes from multiple power plants, having no ability to have your vehicle run indirectly via a secondary primary energy source (i.e. some source other than gasoline) is the entire point of making a car partially/fully electric. Without PHEV capability, a hybrid is merely deferring the need for electrical recharging via the gasoline power plant (and yes, you will get a pinch of free ebergy back from regenerative braking). So in the end, the GH is nothing more than an overly complex, expensive, gasoline power vehicle like every other non-hybrid Highlander. What's the point?

So until the GH becomes a PHEV, skip ALL of the Hybrid offerings and just buy the non-hybrid and save yourself the money.

Hello Toyota??? You did the right thing with the coming Mazda CX-90. The CX-90 will qualify for maximum Gov't rebates ... no so for the GH-Hybrids. Why did you forget the Highlander for PHEV? You could have dominanted the PHEV market is many segments if you had! Pay attention to the consumer attention the RAV4 Prime's power plant is getting. Then do the GH right in 2025 with PHEV integration.

As they say in hockey ... "Be were the puck is going to be, not where it was".

 

[HopelessWanderer]

Hey @crag welcome to the forum! Are you considering a CX-90 PHEV along with the Grand Highlander? Or will you get the four cylinder Grand Highlander?

 

[crag]

Hey @crag welcome to the forum! Are you considering a CX-90 PHEV along with the Grand Highlander? Or will you get the four cylinder Grand Highlander?

As I'm a long-time Highlander fan and have been researching everything I could regarding the Grand Highlander (GH), I'm thinking I might give Toyota one last chance and wait to see what happens in 2025. By that time, the CX-90 Hybrid will have a year's worth of reviews and measures. If Toyota does not offer the GH in a PHEV, I'll be looking to the CX-90 Hybrid (unless the Honda Pilot becomes available in a PHEV ... dependent on GM to some degree). Subaru is a wash as they hve zero intentions to build a PHEV (standard hybrid or full BEV designs). The CX-90 is a good deign that is closely based on the past proven Highlander hybrid design that involved the NiMH batteries and integrated transmission drive. The nice thing about that design is that if any part of the electric drive system fails, the ICE system remains fully functional. With the completely different design in the GH, if the electrics go down, I know the rear electric drive will be lost but not sure about whether the GH will be able to still function in front-wheel drive mode ... perhaps not. Need to ask Toyota. As an engineer, I'm picky on design and reliability for the $$$ being asked for these vehicles. I've had a Nissan Leaf since 2019 and love the car. The problem is that BEVs suffer from the Canadian cold (mine will shut down complete is the battery core reaches below -17C), the issue of lagging charging infrastructure, and the time it takes to recharge outside of overnight at home. This is why PHEV is the answer if you want to go electric. Even hydrogen cells are a good idea but again, you are back to the lack infrastructure issue ... and the potential Hindenburg threat in a good accident :-(

 

[Grand Highlander]

This is why PHEV is the answer if you want to go electric.

I question the value of going PHEV with such a large vehicle like the Grand Highlander. It'll already have phenomenal mileage for a vehicle in this class. I think Toyota has shown excellent foresight and courage in going with and perfecting the hybrid system early on and making it a mainstream platform on almost all their vehicles. This is much more realistic and ultimately sustainable solution given our extreme winters and lagging infrastructure.

Toyota's record and long term strategy is more consequential and forward thinking than Elon's Tesla imo.

There's no doubt in my mind that PHEV will be an option over time when it makes sense.

 

[chuck3006]

I think if they do offer a PHEV the price would be substantially higher. In my usage scenario, based on how I use my current Camry hybrid, there would be little value to me of having a PHEV. When using the vehicle I put on 300 to 500 miles a day. Being able to run a small portion of those as an EV has little value to me. What does have value to me is to have a vehicle of this size, which can seat 7 or 8, that gets 30-34 mph. The thing that matters to me the most is reliability and in that regard the VW Atlas is a joke and the Korean offerings do not even warrant mention; and based on past experience as an auto dealer, the Mazda will not meet my reliability standards either.
So I have already given my local dealer a deposit on one of the first GH Hybrid AWD's that come in.

 

[chuck3006]

A further point to add to my prior post. The only vehicles my local dealer adds a bump to are the Prius PHEV and Rav4 PHEV. The addendum for them is 10,000 and I hear of other dealers who charge more. I can't justify any additional cost let alone a 10k addendum; it doesn't pencil out.

 

[crag]

I think if they do offer a PHEV the price would be substantially higher. In my usage scenario, based on how I use my current Camry hybrid, there would be little value to me of having a PHEV. When using the vehicle I put on 300 to 500 miles a day. Being able to run a small portion of those as an EV has little value to me. What does have value to me is to have a vehicle of this size, which can seat 7 or 8, that gets 30-34 mph. The thing that matters to me the most is reliability and in that regard the VW Atlas is a joke and the Korean offerings do not even warrant mention; and based on past experience as an auto dealer, the Mazda will not meet my reliability standards either. So I have already given my local dealer a deposit on one of the first GH Hybrid AWD's that come in.

Everything you have said is absolutely correct and it is for those who do lots of miles per day the current GH hybrid offering make sense. I on the other hand have a different daily workload that sees driving less than 60 km/day. Right now, I drive my LEAF around and when I get home, it gets recharged via stored solar power from the day (I have a hybrid solar system). Over the year, I pay nothing more than insurance and licensing (effectively I have a solar-power car sans solar panels). So the current GH Hybrid would cost me more to operate daily than the PHEV option. There certainly are cases where dealers were adding to the MRSP for PHEVs (b/c they knew that the gov't rebates would be higher) but I think those days are becoming fewer. Just look at what Ford is doing because of dealer markups beyond MSRP: Ford has created e-Ford for all of their hybrid/electric options whereby consumers can bypass the dealer and purchase directly from the manufacturer (just like Tesla) at MSRP. GM looks like they will be looking to do the same. Others likely to follow. Thanks for the Mazda insight. I was hoping that with Toyota behind their hybrid system that some of Toyota's reliability would come across. Reliability is job #1. Are the Mazda SkyActive" engines any better than old?

 

[chuck3006]

I know little of the new Mazda offerings. I know when I bought my 2017 Hybrid Camry I drove everything else that was comparable and the integration between gas and electric was far superior with the Camry. Some of the other cars seemed to lag for seconds when the throttle was applied before the computer decided what to do.
I can see that in your situation a PHEV might be better but in my case there would be few days where it would run as an EV only. Given any additional cost for a PHEV it likely would not work for me. Looking at Toyota's website they show the Rav4 Hybrid from 30,725 and the Rav4 Prime from 42,340. The only Rav4 prime I know of that sold locally went for 52k. I have heard of them going for double retail sticker. If the difference was 2k I might do it. I have 9960 watts of solar at home and run a 131% offset so I could charge it at no cost beyond setting up a charging station. But for the 900 mile runs to visit parents, kids and grandkids the plug in would be of no help. For my business use of the vehicle it would not help either.
Right now my main concern is do I get the standard Hybrid or the Hybrid Max? The additional power of the Max would be nice but it would come at the cost of 3-5 mpg less. I also wonder abou the long term durability of the turbo engine relative to the naturally aspirated 2.5 engine.

 

[crag]

I know little of the new Mazda offerings. I know when I bought my 2017 Hybrid Camry I drove everything else that was comparable and the integration between gas and electric was far superior with the Camry. Some of the other cars seemed to lag for seconds when the throttle was applied before the computer decided what to do.
I can see that in your situation a PHEV might be better but in my case there would be few days where it would run as an EV only. Given any additional cost for a PHEV it likely would not work for me. Looking at Toyota's website they show the Rav4 Hybrid from 30,725 and the Rav4 Prime from 42,340. The only Rav4 prime I know of that sold locally went for 52k. I have heard of them going for double retail sticker. If the difference was 2k I might do it. I have 9960 watts of solar at home and run a 131% offset so I could charge it at no cost beyond setting up a charging station. But for the 900 mile runs to visit parents, kids and grandkids the plug in would be of no help. For my business use of the vehicle it would not help either.
Right now my main concern is do I get the standard Hybrid or the Hybrid Max? The additional power of the Max would be nice but it would come at the cost of 3-5 mpg less. I also wonder abou the long term durability of the turbo engine relative to the naturally aspirated 2.5 engine.

We have the same thinking. Turbos are notorious for never lasting as long as they should. Unless you need the additional power, save your money and increase the longevity of not having any major engine repairs by looking to the standard Hybrid. This would have been my instant choice if the GH was available in a PHEV (provided that extra $$ made sense ... even after the Gov't rebate for PHEV which is significantly more that a MHEV).